Comments on: ToGC, and Hardcore Raiding in Wrath of the Lich King http://www.lumethemad.com/2009/12/02/togcs-problems-and-hardcore-raiding-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king/ A WoW Blog Sat, 10 Jul 2010 08:49:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Lume http://www.lumethemad.com/2009/12/02/togcs-problems-and-hardcore-raiding-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king/comment-page-1/#comment-14011 Lume Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:28:47 +0000 http://www.lumethemad.com/?p=206#comment-14011 If the intent of the gating system is to artificially keep guilds from putting an instance on farm, I don't support the concept. If the intent is simply to allow Blizzard to deliver content as it's balanced and ready, I'm fine with it. If the intent of the gating system is to artificially keep guilds from putting an instance on farm, I don’t support the concept. If the intent is simply to allow Blizzard to deliver content as it’s balanced and ready, I’m fine with it.

]]> By: Twosies http://www.lumethemad.com/2009/12/02/togcs-problems-and-hardcore-raiding-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king/comment-page-1/#comment-14009 Twosies Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:07:39 +0000 http://www.lumethemad.com/?p=206#comment-14009 Interesting post... I would be interested to see your thoughts on the gating system used in ICC as an alternative to the limited attempts used in ToC to ration out content as well. Seems to me that Blizz are trying to prevent a one week clear of content followed by six months of farming - is the gating system any better than limited attempts? I know we had this discussion on the PM forums a while ago, but has your thinking changed with the increased info about ICC out? Interesting post… I would be interested to see your thoughts on the gating system used in ICC as an alternative to the limited attempts used in ToC to ration out content as well. Seems to me that Blizz are trying to prevent a one week clear of content followed by six months of farming – is the gating system any better than limited attempts? I know we had this discussion on the PM forums a while ago, but has your thinking changed with the increased info about ICC out?

]]> By: Lume http://www.lumethemad.com/2009/12/02/togcs-problems-and-hardcore-raiding-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king/comment-page-1/#comment-13901 Lume Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:14:01 +0000 http://www.lumethemad.com/?p=206#comment-13901 You're right. Technically I got the number wrong. But then the ilvl increase doesn't have to be logical. It just has to be a substantial enough increase. Content can be designed with ilvl jumps in mind, and the ilvl jump can be decided based on how severe of an increase you want. You wouldn't get the same gear in ToGC10 as you do in ToC25 with my idea, just gear with the same item level. ToGC10 and ToGC25 would be the versions that offer the same gear w/ different item levels. That way, people in 10-man guilds do not feel compelled to just run 25-man normal PUG's, all while people in 25-man guilds, do not feel compelled to run ToGC10 for all eternity and can get their final BIS pieces from just doing the 25-man. Unfortunately, there really is a distinction between 10 and 25-man content. With 10, Blizzard has to account for the fact that guilds will often run with a somewhat suboptimal raid comp, so 10-man content is typically much easier than the 25-man. This is exhibited in both Ulduar and ToC. H-Anub25 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more difficult than H-Anub10. Same with TV. Same with Yogg. Same with Mimiron. Etc. Yes, there's an example of the opposite (read: Sartharion), but when that's the anomaly, you base gear design around it. It is feasible, however, as you say, that they could make 10-man hard mode loot better than 25-man normal. And I wouldn't object. You’re right. Technically I got the number wrong. But then the ilvl increase doesn’t have to be logical. It just has to be a substantial enough increase. Content can be designed with ilvl jumps in mind, and the ilvl jump can be decided based on how severe of an increase you want.

You wouldn’t get the same gear in ToGC10 as you do in ToC25 with my idea, just gear with the same item level. ToGC10 and ToGC25 would be the versions that offer the same gear w/ different item levels. That way, people in 10-man guilds do not feel compelled to just run 25-man normal PUG’s, all while people in 25-man guilds, do not feel compelled to run ToGC10 for all eternity and can get their final BIS pieces from just doing the 25-man.

Unfortunately, there really is a distinction between 10 and 25-man content. With 10, Blizzard has to account for the fact that guilds will often run with a somewhat suboptimal raid comp, so 10-man content is typically much easier than the 25-man. This is exhibited in both Ulduar and ToC. H-Anub25 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more difficult than H-Anub10. Same with TV. Same with Yogg. Same with Mimiron. Etc. Yes, there’s an example of the opposite (read: Sartharion), but when that’s the anomaly, you base gear design around it.

It is feasible, however, as you say, that they could make 10-man hard mode loot better than 25-man normal. And I wouldn’t object.

]]> By: BobTurkey http://www.lumethemad.com/2009/12/02/togcs-problems-and-hardcore-raiding-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king/comment-page-1/#comment-13897 BobTurkey Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:20:14 +0000 http://www.lumethemad.com/?p=206#comment-13897 Very interesting post. Gobble gobble. Very interesting post.

Gobble gobble.

]]> By: Senres http://www.lumethemad.com/2009/12/02/togcs-problems-and-hardcore-raiding-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king/comment-page-1/#comment-13895 Senres Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:53:49 +0000 http://www.lumethemad.com/?p=206#comment-13895 I think you mean ilvl252 for ToGC25 in your list. Every other gear bump is a full tier (13 ilvls) but 239 to 245 is only half of a tier. I'd like to disagree with this part just a bit, and diverge to something that I think is related: 10m vs. 25m. Why is it that a 25m raid should drop better gear than a 10m raid? Why should a heroic 10m raid drop the same loot as a normal mode 25m raid? Look at ToC. ToC10 and ToC25 are both super simple. Anybody can faceroll their way through a 25m ToC PUG and get ilvl245 gear. ToGC10 is actually pretty challenging, and yet it also drops ilvl245 gear. Why should someone facerolling their way through ToC25 get the same level of gear that another player gets in ToGC10? Ideally, IMO, I'd like to see raid size become a choice of player preference and not of difficulty. We have hard modes these days to allow players to select a difficulty. I'd like to see Blizzard let its players select 10 or 25 man based upon which they enjoy playing and not always have to favor 25 man raids because of superior loot. In ToC, normal mode (10 or 25 man) makes the raid accessible and heroic mode (10 or 25 man) is challenging for the more "hardcore" player. There's no reason that 10m raids need to be easier than 25 man raids. Admittedly, ToGC25 is more challenging than ToGC10. Given that, I'd like to see something more like: 226: Uld 10/25 239: Uld 10/25 hard, ToC 10/25 252: ToGC 10/25, ICC 10/25 265: ICC 10/25 hard If Blizzard continues to think that 10m raids should be tuned easier than 25m and therefore 25m raids should drop better loot, I'd at least like them to recognize that 10 man hard modes are more difficult than 25 man normal modes. A great compromise would be: 219: Uld10 226: Uld25 232: Uld10 hard, ToC10 239: Uld25 hard, ToC25 245: ToGC10, ICC 10 252: ToGC25, ICC 25 258: ICC 10 hard 265: ICC 25 hard Thoughts? I think you mean ilvl252 for ToGC25 in your list. Every other gear bump is a full tier (13 ilvls) but 239 to 245 is only half of a tier. I’d like to disagree with this part just a bit, and diverge to something that I think is related: 10m vs. 25m. Why is it that a 25m raid should drop better gear than a 10m raid? Why should a heroic 10m raid drop the same loot as a normal mode 25m raid?

Look at ToC. ToC10 and ToC25 are both super simple. Anybody can faceroll their way through a 25m ToC PUG and get ilvl245 gear. ToGC10 is actually pretty challenging, and yet it also drops ilvl245 gear. Why should someone facerolling their way through ToC25 get the same level of gear that another player gets in ToGC10?

Ideally, IMO, I’d like to see raid size become a choice of player preference and not of difficulty. We have hard modes these days to allow players to select a difficulty. I’d like to see Blizzard let its players select 10 or 25 man based upon which they enjoy playing and not always have to favor 25 man raids because of superior loot. In ToC, normal mode (10 or 25 man) makes the raid accessible and heroic mode (10 or 25 man) is challenging for the more “hardcore” player. There’s no reason that 10m raids need to be easier than 25 man raids. Admittedly, ToGC25 is more challenging than ToGC10.

Given that, I’d like to see something more like:

226: Uld 10/25
239: Uld 10/25 hard, ToC 10/25
252: ToGC 10/25, ICC 10/25
265: ICC 10/25 hard

If Blizzard continues to think that 10m raids should be tuned easier than 25m and therefore 25m raids should drop better loot, I’d at least like them to recognize that 10 man hard modes are more difficult than 25 man normal modes. A great compromise would be:

219: Uld10
226: Uld25
232: Uld10 hard, ToC10
239: Uld25 hard, ToC25
245: ToGC10, ICC 10
252: ToGC25, ICC 25
258: ICC 10 hard
265: ICC 25 hard

Thoughts?

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